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sylph_ficsOkay, so a couple of new friends wound up, in kind of a roundabout way, asking for why I slash, and how I see it actually working. So, *laughs* have a thoughts-on-yaoi post! We'll see if I need to warn for teal deer herds once I'm done. ((why yes, I do read fandom-wank while bored)).
Let's get my own bias laid out on the table first, shall we?
I'm bi. I have been, I guess, all my life. Though I didn't really figure it out until college--perils of growing up in the middle of the Bible Belt, I guess. I was very much the All-American good girl in HS, had too much riding on not embarrassing too many generations of my family not to be. Once I was away from home, though, and in what was in some ways a deeply unhappy relationship, I figured out pretty quickly that I liked the intimate company of my own sex a hell of a lot.
For me? That wasn't a particularly dramatic revelation, somehow. I guess Bradley and Lackey (and, I'm sure, others) had managed to get through the Biblical hellfire and damnation I'd had poured in my ears. I dunno. It was more a 'oh. Okay. So that works for me too' than anything else.
Of course, I also know my family would disown me. So I'm closeted as hell. But that's their issues and not mine. I love who makes me happy, and I just don't put it in my family's face because I know they wouldn't take it well. Not that difficult. (*snort* unless I get spooked that my mother might show up in the middle of something, but that would spook me either way.)
That perspective, up there, (that I really don't, at all, understand gender making a difference in who you love or are in love with or who you desire), is why I slash. Because in a lot of ways it really doesn't occur to me that when you have blatant text of affection and respect and need and mutual love between any two characters it might not become sexual just based on what plumbing they happen to have.
That's just nuts, and it makes no sense to me. To be real blunt.
If I can look at the pages of text and see things between two same-sex characters that between two characters of opposite sex would typically be considered UST, I'm probably going to consider it UST unless I have a really, really good reason not to.
There aren't very many really good reasons, as far as I'm concerned. However, spouses are a big one.
This is why I can't normally make myself slash the senior members of the JSA. They love their wives too much. This is why I don't, often, write S/B, especially with current canon. I can't deal with making canonically monogamous, faithful characters adulterers. It's a personal issue and no reflection on anyone else's tastes or preferences. Now, on the other hand, an open marriage, on the other hand, where all parties know and are okay with it?
I can so Completely go there. I'm actually rather fond of the idea. Just show it to me.
Oh, yeah. Did I mention that I'm poly, and that our cultural obsession with monogamy makes about as much sense to me on an emotional level as our cultural obsession with straightness? If not, consider it mentioned.
On a logical level, okay, yeah, I get all of the reasons for the monogamy-focus. Property rights and so on and so forth ad nauseum. On an emotional level? Nope, still confused, as far as I go. Other people? Dude. Do what makes you happy. If it's swearing "I do" and meaning it, because of your own emotions and your partner's, I have all the respect in the world for you.
And, as mentioned above, there are plenty of couples who I think did that, and meant it, and I try to make sure I respect those already-made choices in who I chose to pair off. Of course, there are canonically philandering wandering-eyed idiots, too. Those make my slashing a bit easier, in some cases (why yes, Oliver Queen, I am looking at you).
Wow, I'm wandering all over the place, huh?
I know you can't throw pre-existing canon out the window about someone's sexuality. But hell, I didn't realize I was actually attracted to women until I was very late teens (or at least, I didn't get up the gumption to do something about said attraction until that point). It isn't out of the realm of possibility for me that it might have taken longer for any of my favorite characters. Admittedly, that's not my preferred read. I tend to prefer to believe it just wasn't shown, for whatever reasons.
The objection I saw from both individuals I was having this discussion with originally was the "Everyone's been whacked with the gay stick" thing.
Yeah, there are moments it looks that way. But I try really hard not to do that, because it disregards so much of the characters' in questions history. I like their histories, or I wouldn't want to write them. Why would I want to ignore the relationships that helped shape them? *shakes head* That makes no sense to me.
I have all of one fandom where I will cheerfully, intently, and with prejudice aforethought, fall into the bash-the-female character trope, and that's because she's an idiotic little bitch who needs stepped on with a Gundam, please god save me.
Other than that? Mostly the female characters are just as awesome, please not to be with the bashing. Relationships in comics are complicated and fraught enough that it's pretty easy to find a point when whatever male character is single and work from there. At least, that's what I do most often.
Speaking of which, I don't normally write explicit femslash because despite that I have plenty of it, describing female/female sex without going 'omg purple prose' or 'omg medical textbook alert' is really, really difficult for me. I love my sex life. Trying to write girls having sex, on the other hand, needs a better vocabulary. Or I do. But that's hardly the point at the moment.
On the "everyone's gay" topic again, I willl freely admit that while I avoid going that far, I do tend to whack Plenty of people with the "everyone's bisexual" stick--though still not everyone. (I'm sorry, but my comics!Wally is straight as one of Roy's arrows.) Call me biased, I'll agree, but my sexuality's worked out real well for me so far, it could work for other people pretty easy.
Without getting into tons of specific examples, that's a lot of my two cents on this topic (1,145 words, good god, that's not two cents).
Comments, questions, discussion, anything?
Let's get my own bias laid out on the table first, shall we?
I'm bi. I have been, I guess, all my life. Though I didn't really figure it out until college--perils of growing up in the middle of the Bible Belt, I guess. I was very much the All-American good girl in HS, had too much riding on not embarrassing too many generations of my family not to be. Once I was away from home, though, and in what was in some ways a deeply unhappy relationship, I figured out pretty quickly that I liked the intimate company of my own sex a hell of a lot.
For me? That wasn't a particularly dramatic revelation, somehow. I guess Bradley and Lackey (and, I'm sure, others) had managed to get through the Biblical hellfire and damnation I'd had poured in my ears. I dunno. It was more a 'oh. Okay. So that works for me too' than anything else.
Of course, I also know my family would disown me. So I'm closeted as hell. But that's their issues and not mine. I love who makes me happy, and I just don't put it in my family's face because I know they wouldn't take it well. Not that difficult. (*snort* unless I get spooked that my mother might show up in the middle of something, but that would spook me either way.)
That perspective, up there, (that I really don't, at all, understand gender making a difference in who you love or are in love with or who you desire), is why I slash. Because in a lot of ways it really doesn't occur to me that when you have blatant text of affection and respect and need and mutual love between any two characters it might not become sexual just based on what plumbing they happen to have.
That's just nuts, and it makes no sense to me. To be real blunt.
If I can look at the pages of text and see things between two same-sex characters that between two characters of opposite sex would typically be considered UST, I'm probably going to consider it UST unless I have a really, really good reason not to.
There aren't very many really good reasons, as far as I'm concerned. However, spouses are a big one.
This is why I can't normally make myself slash the senior members of the JSA. They love their wives too much. This is why I don't, often, write S/B, especially with current canon. I can't deal with making canonically monogamous, faithful characters adulterers. It's a personal issue and no reflection on anyone else's tastes or preferences. Now, on the other hand, an open marriage, on the other hand, where all parties know and are okay with it?
I can so Completely go there. I'm actually rather fond of the idea. Just show it to me.
Oh, yeah. Did I mention that I'm poly, and that our cultural obsession with monogamy makes about as much sense to me on an emotional level as our cultural obsession with straightness? If not, consider it mentioned.
On a logical level, okay, yeah, I get all of the reasons for the monogamy-focus. Property rights and so on and so forth ad nauseum. On an emotional level? Nope, still confused, as far as I go. Other people? Dude. Do what makes you happy. If it's swearing "I do" and meaning it, because of your own emotions and your partner's, I have all the respect in the world for you.
And, as mentioned above, there are plenty of couples who I think did that, and meant it, and I try to make sure I respect those already-made choices in who I chose to pair off. Of course, there are canonically philandering wandering-eyed idiots, too. Those make my slashing a bit easier, in some cases (why yes, Oliver Queen, I am looking at you).
Wow, I'm wandering all over the place, huh?
I know you can't throw pre-existing canon out the window about someone's sexuality. But hell, I didn't realize I was actually attracted to women until I was very late teens (or at least, I didn't get up the gumption to do something about said attraction until that point). It isn't out of the realm of possibility for me that it might have taken longer for any of my favorite characters. Admittedly, that's not my preferred read. I tend to prefer to believe it just wasn't shown, for whatever reasons.
The objection I saw from both individuals I was having this discussion with originally was the "Everyone's been whacked with the gay stick" thing.
Yeah, there are moments it looks that way. But I try really hard not to do that, because it disregards so much of the characters' in questions history. I like their histories, or I wouldn't want to write them. Why would I want to ignore the relationships that helped shape them? *shakes head* That makes no sense to me.
I have all of one fandom where I will cheerfully, intently, and with prejudice aforethought, fall into the bash-the-female character trope, and that's because she's an idiotic little bitch who needs stepped on with a Gundam, please god save me.
Other than that? Mostly the female characters are just as awesome, please not to be with the bashing. Relationships in comics are complicated and fraught enough that it's pretty easy to find a point when whatever male character is single and work from there. At least, that's what I do most often.
Speaking of which, I don't normally write explicit femslash because despite that I have plenty of it, describing female/female sex without going 'omg purple prose' or 'omg medical textbook alert' is really, really difficult for me. I love my sex life. Trying to write girls having sex, on the other hand, needs a better vocabulary. Or I do. But that's hardly the point at the moment.
On the "everyone's gay" topic again, I willl freely admit that while I avoid going that far, I do tend to whack Plenty of people with the "everyone's bisexual" stick--though still not everyone. (I'm sorry, but my comics!Wally is straight as one of Roy's arrows.) Call me biased, I'll agree, but my sexuality's worked out real well for me so far, it could work for other people pretty easy.
Without getting into tons of specific examples, that's a lot of my two cents on this topic (1,145 words, good god, that's not two cents).
Comments, questions, discussion, anything?
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no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 09:17 am (UTC)You've painted a good picture, and I can see your point of view pretty clearly, and there's a lot that makes sense.
I have to say that I'm not surprised you'd be bi, and it's not because you slash, it's because I have found something of an atypically high percentage of bisexuality among fandom writers/rp'ers (a group itself mostly made up of, I've found by my own personal experience, women). I recall hearing another slash writer, also bi, saying something similar regarding the non-issue of gender in attraction and romance, and as they did not believe it to be an issue, neither did this person's characters.
It's a point I can see, and in theory, I concede it-- gender should play no part. The thing is, like I said in the other thread, and as you mentioned experiencing yourself, when one grows up in a hetero-normative atmosphere, making the change in thinking required to get over that issue of gender becomes a big deal. A very big deal, and not one that I believe enough writers or rp'ers take the time and make the effort to address.
I absolutely agree with your stance on honoring and abiding a character's pre-existing canon and history and how those are the things that make the characters worth writing in the first place. Absolutely agree. (You and I both have characters with some big chunks of canon we'd all like to forget ever saw printed paper, but they did, and we've both chosen to deal with them instead of just jettisoning what we don't like.)
Speaking for myself, there's nothing about the slash itself that bothers me. For the record, I am heterosexual (at least in sexual preference, the stereotypical behavior side of things, well, that's another story), but I honestly feel there's no homophobia behind my opinion.
It's the aforementioned "gay stick" (a phrase I do hope you don't feel was meant as an attack, it wasn't) that is my problem. It's the too-often repeated formula of
1. I see two men on screen/in panel with some kind of chemistry or bond.
2. I write a fic of them screwing, with no regard to history or canon.
that's my problem. And as I don't think that'd be your course of action, I certainly wouldn't have issue with your writing. :)
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 01:38 pm (UTC)What else are you gonna do at 2 in the morning when you can't freaking sleep but talk about fandom? (speaking of time zones, good god, why are you two awake?)
Fandom does seem to attract the... unusual crowd. I mean, there's such a high percent of bi or gay, and/or alternative religious preference, and/or alternative lifestyle people in at least my area of fandom that it's kind of startling to find a nice, normal, het, fannish couples (you and wiccabuffy, damo_in_japan and jen_in_japan).
A very big deal, and not one that I believe enough writers or rp'ers take the time and make the effort to address.
Oh, agreed, it needs to be addressed. I'm not sure it's always that traumatic/huge a deal, but I guess my experience might be really unusual. But people are wacky on the internet all of the time, so you've kinda just got to go 'sigh' when they're wacky about that. And then, also, slash (fanfic in general) is escapism, and for those who have to deal with the homophobic bullshit all the time, I can see why in their hobby they really, really wouldn't. Heck, I don't either.
(You and I both have characters with some big chunks of canon we'd all like to forget ever saw printed paper, but they did, and we've both chosen to deal with them instead of just jettisoning what we don't like.)
Oh, don't we ever? I mean, I do jettison one particular chunk of canon, for the sake of my sanity, on the topic of my favorite merc, but that's because --well. That's a whole other rant. Anyway. I suppose it boils down to when the canon doesn't respect the history, the fanfic writers have to try?
No, I don't see homophobia in what you're saying at all, either. Just a request for characterization respect.
Oh, no, I know that wasn't an attack, it's just a quick, easily understandable way to phrase a fairly common frustration. I got it.
and yeah. It's the part 2 there that's the 'problem' with getting people who aren't already into slash to accept slash.
To your last comment, I think all I've got is Thanks, and also YAY!
((for the most head-twisting, deal with the time period, deal with the characterization, but get them into bed anyway because damn, they're in love, piece I've probably ever helped write, it's over here. If you could get past the pairing, I'd love to know if you think we handled it well--if you even have any interest!! *laughs at self*))
no subject
Date: 2008-06-30 02:42 pm (UTC)Yes, it does. It seems people who are into things enough to be "fandom" are already not the middle of the bell curve types, so it tends to follow. Oh, and er, we're not that normal, but ahem. Moving on. *LOL*
I never thought about wanting to escape into things like that, and especially in the sense of detouring around the more frustrating parts of figuring sexuality out. Good point.
Yeah, I think there's a certain amount of that in what we do, honoring the established canon when the people getting paid to write the characters don't. There's a tendency I've seen in some writers (although the more this gets discussed,
Good and good. :)
I will definitely take a look at it, and let you know.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-30 03:10 pm (UTC)Oh, and er, we're not that normal, but ahem. Moving on. *LOL*
*giggle* Okay, then! But still.
*nods* Yeah. It's not something that everyone wants to have to deal with in fiction when they have to deal with it in their lives.
Oh, another point. One of the reasons I think that in DC at least the rest of the cast is generally painted as supportive at best and... confused at worst is that these are characters we love, and we don't want to paint any of them as the kind of bigots that would throw slurs or turn their backs or otherwise react badly. Because they're not just reacting to the situation with their own child/friend/whatever, that reaction would be to us, too.
IMHO.
Oh, LJ rp-ers often make me completely insane. A lot of them don't even want to fix canon, they just want to take the pretty and play with it however they see fit. No, thank you.
Fanfiction is an entirely different ball of wax. At least I hope it normally is. And I often want to fix canon, too, but I warn blatantly for that. *eyes the piece she did with Vigilante showing up to yell at Nightwing in the 'Haven, before the worst of the stuff with Blocky*
Cool! Glad to hear it.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 09:42 am (UTC)I couldn't agree with you more. *waves Bi flag* Why people get hung up on packaging is beyond me.
I personally tent right Yaoi/Homosexual Slash for a couple of reasons.
1) The boys are just so ripe for all kinds of angst, silliness and romance. The cannon backgrounds are rich and wonderful but area also VERY open to interpretation (raise you hands if you think Dick tried to get into Bruce's bed as a teen because he was feeling insecure and wanted something to make him feel there's a real bond between them). So I don't have to whack anyone with a gay stick :) I think it's already there, just happening off scene.
2) This is more a gripe about fandom in general and my own personal issues. Now granted, it's more likely then not that you will run into badly written stuff then the jaw dropping fics. But that said, in my experience, Het and Yuri/Lesbian Slash tends to be just....icky. it's about the sex and very little else as the writer works through their fantasies. Yaoi/Homosexual Slash on the other hand tends to have PLOT and characterization, which is a very good thing in my estimation.
So yeah, when I'm looking for something to read, I'll probably have a gander at some pairing or other of the boyos.
Again, this is my issue and not indicative of anything else.
Oh and AWESOME article :)
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 02:17 pm (UTC)*grins* What you said. I mean, the world we've got to live in makes sure we have to at least pay a little attention to it, but nnngh, it's so stupid.
1. *hand shoots to ceiling* I'm pretty sure I believed that before Devin Grayson did her level best to get it into canon, but she sure helped. And yeah, I typically think it's there, just understated.
2. Hey, now, I write het, too. *eyes you* Just... less of it. And there is just as much badly written, throw-'em-together-just-because-we-can Slash as there is het or femslash. But I'm guilty of those very same assumptions, I'll admit.
Thanks so much! *grins happily* I had fun putting it together.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 02:50 pm (UTC)Well clearly you need to provide me with some links *nods sagely*
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 03:32 pm (UTC)http://merfilly.livejournal.com/442980.html ...oh, wait, non-explicit again.
http://ilyena-sylph.livejournal.com/121491.html explicit in parts.
http://ilyena-sylph.livejournal.com/113278.html#cutid1 het-ish threesome.
http://ilyena-sylph.livejournal.com/63905.html#cutid1 very het, very scary.
And, um, check merfilly's otpow tag for my co-written het with her.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 03:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 09:50 am (UTC)No, seriously, I'm bi, too. But married, and very monogamous. I'm a weirdo, I guess? I've never had any issues with people's preferences IRL (whatever floats your boat, unless you like to hurt little children sexually in which case I am not very forgiving...)
All that aside, I think my main problem has been fandom. Particularly RP fandom, as opposed to fanfic. And particularly here on LJ as opposed to other places I've RPed. Where I first began RPing, my very close friend was a co-mod, so I learned the ropes of how to write, get into a character's head, mess around with them (hee), and all that good stuff.
I got to RPing here on LJ, though, and every fandom I was in wanted to ship and slash characters right away. (That was where the "hit with the gay stick" phrase came from, actually). It wasn't that I didn't realize that yes, Spike and Angel had sex...(Joss Whedon even said so in a commentary!)
It was just that my Spike had large Buffy issues still as well as Mommy issues and Fred/Illyria issues and so he was NOT looking to go and get laid by Angel. Or Wesley. Or Gunn. I actually DID try slashing Spike with Angel in RP once (with Eric as Angel, so you would think the comfort level of doing so would be there), but it didn't work. We both laughed at how horribly FORCED it was.
And I think that was when I realized it, that everyone in fandom just seemed to be forcing the pretty men into having sex without developing a relationship or chemistry or groundwork as to how these two (or three or whatever) men would get together. I rarely see the pretty women being slashed, too, which I don't understand at all unless it's because straight women want to write about sexy men together? (Although your reason for not wanting femmeslash is interesting, since it's the first time I've heard it, and I can understand it, actually.)
Is this rambling? Probably. *L* But thank you for writing all of this out to answer a few questions for me, since no one else I know really seems to be able to do so. And thank you, also, for being a welcoming RP-er. Hopefully, I've been the same?
*hugs*
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 03:17 pm (UTC)And no, you're not a wierdo, you've just made the choices that work for you and make you happy. More power to you for it. And yeah, I tend to be pretty 'whatever floats your boat' (Oh, my god, so much agreement. I go from not very forgiving to vaguely homicidal, however).
*chuckles, nods* There's a reason that my merc is my first real LJ-RP character. Well, no. I had Kon first, but that RP kind of blew up in my face. Nnngh. I'm an old-school table-top RPG-er, so all of my prior RP characters have been OCs, and I'm much more used to heavy plot-focused RP than the free-form chaos that seems to be LJ's preference. But the free-form chaos is its own kind of fun.
Spike... oh, Spike, you damaged little critter. *pats him very warily and gently* Of course he had issues, he was put through hell, and yeah, I can see where the last thing he would want would be another relationship, especially with Angel. Those two.. Phwoar. I mean, yeah, sexual chemistry like crazy, but screwed up like crazy, too! Noooo, not a good thing for him to go for at all.
Not everyone in fandom does that, I promise. I can't think of anyone in my particular crowd that does, honestly, not for serious fic. Crackfic, of course, is a whole other ball game. Show me the relationship, folks, or really, I'm not interested. Or, well, label it established relationship or part of a series, and then I'm pretty happy, too.
Hm, for pretty women being slashed, you want...
Oh, I want femmeslash, I just can't write it to save my life, for the reason mentioned! *laugh* It's strange. I have plenty of it in rl, but putting it to paper? something goes all wonky and it's horrible.
I mean, I ship Kory/Donna (or Donna/Raven or Kory/Raven) to the ends of the earth, but writing it? I just can't do it so that I'm happy.
The only piece of explicit femmeslash I've got, I co-wrote, and it's Dinah/Diana posted here ((please ignore the dedication, if you click, it was written before she showed her true colors)).
ETA: Also, no, not particularly rambling, and it was fun to get out on paper.
You've been really great about being welcoming, by the way. It's awkward, given who the characters are, but it seems to be working pretty well so far.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 12:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 03:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 01:44 pm (UTC)But you're right, there need to be better words for teh girlsex.
I tend to assume characters are bi out of sheer laziness...if they're bi, then I can pair them with whoever I feel like pairing them with. So I suppose I have a great big Bi Stick and use it liberally.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 03:21 pm (UTC)There really, really do. It's just... it's either so clinical or so over-the-top, when I try, that... no. *SIGH*
*laugh, nod* Yeah, default bisexuality is a useful thing, and I use my Bi stick liberally, too, I admit. But then, you write mostly in HP still, right? and there's plenty of reason to assume less heteronormative pressure there, too.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 06:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 02:18 pm (UTC)*hugs* :)
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 03:44 pm (UTC)I tried really hard to write that bit without sounding like I was coming down on the S/B shippers, did I do okay? *hopeful*
And yeah. It's an issue. A big one, for me.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-30 03:50 pm (UTC)Hmm... I wonder if there isn't an essay in all of this... *ponders*
*hugs* :)
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 03:39 pm (UTC)My fandoms - DCU and Dick Grayson mostly but I still read the occaisional Angel or Buffy fic. I have also read some Samurai 7 and Due South fanfic. I just watched the Magnificent Seven (TV show and movie) and may try to look for some fanfic in that fandom. Favorite pairings in DCU: Babs/Dick, Dick/Roy, Dick/Slade, Roy/Slade (not enough of that out there!) In Angel and Buffy; I was a big fan of Wesley/Angel(us), Wesley/Lilah, Wesley/Faith and Spike/Buffy but again I don't read as much anymore.
And me? I'm a happiily married hetero mom with an understanding husband. He doesn't get it, but he indulges me! He knows this is my odd obsession (fanfic, in general-not slash persee) and playfully teases. That's okay, I tease back about his weird knowledge of 70's and 80's music!
Wendy (from Bludhaven Group)
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 03:49 pm (UTC)The relationship never feels forced. It's natural.
This, yes. Yes and yes and yes again.
*laughs* Oh, what an analogy! (the 'throw them together fics' to romance novels. ...I think you might really be on to something, there!)
I am not a Nightwing/Oracle fan at all. I like Robin I/Batgirl I though. At that point, they were good for each other. Not so much anymore.
Dick/Roy you'll find plenty of here, of course. Slade/Dick, too. Though I need to write down and post more of that. Slade/Roy... that is a Really, Really difficult pairing for me to write, given that the two of them have many, many reasons to dislike each other very intensely, but I have been known to write it.
I was a Spike/Buffy fan up until season 4. After that? I hated what the show was doing so much that I quit watching it.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 04:11 pm (UTC)I didn't start off as a slash fan and really am not still a huge one. I honestly don't prefer serious het, either, though. While I love stories that are deep or even hot, depending on the skill of the author, I really like gen. Most of my biggest issues with slash even fall in line with the 'everyone is gay/bi' lines that people use an excuse. For me, characterization is paramount always to everything, including shipping, plot, author desire or the oft-used and abused 'it's all interpretation'. If I can't solidly recognize the character you're writing as themself, then the author is failing, regardless of what's being written.
However, that being said, the situation and characterization and such can make or break any pairing, slash or het. While you're not familiar with it, it's all the difference between the Arc of the Wolf, and the Mirror Universe -- in one, my guys are utterly fraternal. Do they have a deep, faithful attachment? Yes, absolutely -- they would live and die for one another. But it never even occurs to them, nor ever would, to translate that into a romance. They're best friends, brothers, family, two sides of a coin... but if anyone suggested it was more romantic (I refuse to say stronger) they'd react like a pair of kid brothers who'd go, "Ewwwww! That's gross!" To them, would be on par with incest.
In the Mirror universe though, due to nurture, circumstance, ages, events and a billion other things, they're in a decidedly not-platonic relationship (even if it is mostly one-sided) and that attachment is soul-deep too. And still both in character.
I'm rambling. I guess what I'm trying to sum up is that characterization, done well, is the single most important thing and everything else (regardless of what it is) falls after that. So long as it's in character, I don't really care if it's slash, het, gen or whatnot.
...I see your two cents and raise you two and tl;dr galore with my own thoughts on slash.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 06:30 pm (UTC)I agree with all of your tl;dr, too. And I really hope I manage to keep them in character, no matter that as a general rule I prefer shipfic of one variety or another.
One of these days, I will read your TOS stuff.
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Date: 2008-06-29 06:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 04:23 pm (UTC)GAH YES I KNOW! I've written more explicit f/f sex than m/m because I'm far more familiar with the parts involved, but I always feel so awkward! We need better slang for girlparts that isn't degrading.
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Date: 2008-06-29 06:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-29 06:34 pm (UTC)THANK YOU!
Date: 2008-06-29 05:40 pm (UTC)My background - raised in a very dysfunctional home, my role model was my father, the only other person in the house I would class as sane. He raised me, much to the horror of my mother and both sets of grandparents, with a very hippy philosophy. I went to sleep younger to his strumming the guitar and singing folk songs of Joan Biaz, Bob Dylan, Peter Paul and Mary, that kind of thing. He taught me not to judge people and who tbey were is what wored for them.
I really did not get that involved one way or the other until I met a long lost relative. She and I hit it off so well. She is Bi, much to the horror of the rest of the family. I don't give a damn and when I listen to arguments about the 'sanctity of marriage' et al frankly I want to puke. I don't see why their relationship is so awful and horrible while lousy relationships in the 'proper gender' are accepted. UGH. So I started slashing in support of my cousin and GBLT friends.
Personally I love Dick/Roy. I think Bruce/Ollie are very HOT HOT HOT. I see he and Dinah having an open marriage. Neither have a truly monogamous bone in their whole bodies. I also, and this will squick out some of my readers, but the Huffmeister is of two minds, if they are not father/son, then whoochimamma they would be the hottest lovers in the history of comics. Oh yeah, hehheh they would have done some serious working out, though Bruce would wait until he was 18, though *snicker* not by much. I guess that is my problem with Tim, and Conner. I want to sit back and ogle my men and get the runt out of the picture. Too often he is written like a wedge, superior to Dick and closer to Bruce, perfect in every way. if Tim is written like a normal teen I don't mind. I HATE super-teen. I also dislike all the focus on Tim and *sniff* Tim;s losses. Sorry but Bruce and Dick have been through a hell of a lot of losses to and no one really seems content to write off their behavior to that.
Personally, I see many delicious possibilities with Slade and Dick. Nah, Slade and Roy I can't see. Frankly their hot tempers would make hot lust, wild monkey sex once and then they would kill each other. Personally, not an S/B shipper. I just do not see them together. I don't think superman would ever understand Bruce enough to bond. Superman just strikes me as way to straight and too long with women. Besides that though, I don't really see Superman as having the depth. I think Bruce needs equal parts in a lover of vulnerability and strength. I just dont see that in Clark. Smallville Clark yes, but not canon Clark. There is a real difference in how the character is portrayed that I never feel it fits when they bring in Smallville Clark and drop him into canon Clark's body or transpose the two. Personally to me, doesnt ring true but more power to all who do it.
If you would like to read my slash, check out hgwithhg.livejournal.com. Right now it is some Bruce/Dick slash. Going to expand it. Just keep it seperate for those who don't go to the slash side. Cool to see your work here. Awesome. I do love your Dick/Tim and others because Tim is a normal teen and gives back instead of taking.
Personal note --- where is your Western? I LOVED it. I know I was disappointed with the addition of Tim. I can accept him now because you don't do the uber Tim kick Dick down school. Need hot SLADE! SLADE! SLADE! I still snicker over the image of Bullock on a horse. Poor horse, hope he got extra oats as compensation. Any chance it might be slashed up in the future? ;) Please? Hot Dick, a hayloft with real hay? So many guys who would love the opportunity. OK Huffy is going to sign off and go hose down.
Re: THANK YOU!
Date: 2008-06-29 06:46 pm (UTC)This, absolutely.
the 'sanctity of marriage' et al frankly I want to puke.
*snort* Sanctity of marriage my ass. Same-sex couples aren't degrading the sanctity of marriage, the 50% divorce rate and the obscene spousal abuse rates have more than already done that. *snorts in disgust again*
Personally I love Dick/Roy
Well, you ought to find plenty of that around here. *grins*
Bruce/Ollie... I've got some of that, too, if you check my tags. I adore them.
And I can see Ollie wanting an open marriage, but I mostly can't see Dinah doing so, because my Dinah has ISSUES with lack of faithfulness. See JLA:YO for proof of that.
Who, Dick and Bruce for hottest lovers in the history of comics? Oh, GOD yes. I ship the two of them like burning, though in several ways it's a massively unhealthy relationship for both of them.
I have issues when Tim is written as Super!Robin, too, though I do adore the boy. And Tim has a right to grieve and be traumatized by his losses--but so. does. Dick.
And you're right. Tim does get judged differently, and it's very frustrating. Dick, poor boy, has been through just as much hell as Timmy has.
Oh, I write Slade/Dick with massive amounts of joy, though I do need to post more of it. I love the two of them madly.
Mmm... I can't even see the lust once, but then, Roy was willing to sacrifice Slade's wife to save the woman that nuked a country. Slade really doesn't forgive that kind of thing. Or at least, mine doesn't.
Not an S/B shipper either, wrote it once basically on a dare (challenge, really).
Cool, I'll definitely go check that out. I love Bruce/Dick. You might want to check out
The western is over here at my co-writer and beloved's journal. Thank you so much for asking!!! I'm sure she'd love to hear what you think.
Oh, if you want Slade, come here. And then hit merfilly again, and
And, unfortunately, no. There will be no explicit sex of any variety, let alone slash, in a piece that is intended to be faithful to the spirit of the Western genre. I just can't break genre that far.
Also, I'm a country girl. Haybales and hay are about the most damn uncomfortable things on the face of the planet. *shudder*
Here from the Bludhaven yahoogroup...
Date: 2008-06-29 06:25 pm (UTC)So, my thoughts on yaoi. First, I consider myself asexual, as for all my life I can't remember ever being all that interested in sex beyond the initial teenaged curiosity. When I find myself attracted to people, it's an attraction to who they are and how they make me feel, but the concept of "and therefore I'd like to have sex with them" doesn't even enter my mind. It's more of "I want to get to know you, to be with you where you are, to share some portion of my life (this minute, this hour, this year) with you." I call it love, and I've felt it towards both men and women, mostly people who were/are good friends of mine, but it's not a friendship thing because I have really good friends that I don't feel that *something extra* for.
Of course, most people I talk to can't seem to understand this concept, or think I'm somehow sexually repressed/just haven't had "good sex" yet, so to spare their sensibilities I just tell people I'm bi. Not that it comes up much in casual conversation these days, because -- second point here -- I'm in a committed heterosexual marriage. To avoid TMI I'll just say that my husband and I have a very healthy and active sex life, but for me the sex is never a goal in and of itself and while *ahem* pleasurable, I could solemnly swear to abstain for the rest of my natural life and never look back.
Thus, my views on sex -- and how it translates to my views on pairings and sex in fic. For me, sex is gift and expression and distraction and comfort and tool, and I think sex is a wonderful vehicle for characterization. There's this whole new level of intimacy when you "see" the character having sex, but you see *the characters* just as much as you see the sex. I don't believe in OTPs, or the concept of "one true love," or even "true love" if I'm being honest. There's just love, romantic (for wont of a better word) and platonic and selfish and sacrificial, and sex by nature isn't exclusive to type.
I believe that characterization trumps plot (or set-up-for-sex in the case of PWP) and that canon trumps author kink, meaning that I think a lot of work needs to go into, say, portraying a character as acting outside of their established canonical sexual norm (a mild, generally bland character having a wild, kinky sex/sex fantasy life? Sure, but the burden of proof lies with the author). This also applies to giving a canonically heterosexual individual bisexual leanings (because if they were shown to have been in a sexually active hetero relationship that they obvious enjoyed a great deal at the time no way will I buy that they were only hetero because they didn't know any better (Buffy writers, I'm looking at *you*)).
When I slash non-canonically-gay/bisexual characters I tend to make the sexual relationship into a natural progression of the friendship. Yes there's angst in accordance to character, but its never the "and I woke up gay" epiphany or "wow I'm suddenly in romantic love with my best friend." They already were in love, and the sex just adds another element to it. Said angst (or lack thereof) depends on the character and their life situation, and is another vehicle for characterization.
Of course, there are characters interested in casual sex and the arts of seduction, etc, and then there's the whole concept of having a "fuck buddy" which is more about having sex than it is about the person they're having it *with*, but I don't write it and I don't read it -- though I do acknowledge that a whole bunch of other rules apply for them. I write genfic and friendship fic mostly, sometimes with added sex :-)
Re: Here from the Bludhaven yahoogroup...
Date: 2008-06-29 06:55 pm (UTC)I really cannot speak to the idea of asexuality, but thank you very much for telling me about your experiences. I love sex, really a lot, and can't fathom not having it. I guess that makes us either end of the scale, huh? That's kind of cool, though.
For me, sex is gift and expression and distraction and comfort and tool,
I absolutely agree with all of that, and it's one of the reasons I enjoy writing sex so much. If I manage to do it well, it shows more about the characters than almost anything else ever could.
only hetero because they didn't know any better (Buffy writers, I'm looking at *you*)).
Oh, I threw things at the TV when that stupidity came up on Buffy. I mean I really, really did. That made me so mad I could just scream. And I hate when fanfic writers do it, too. Hi, bisexuality is a valid option, damn it!
I don't accept canonically heterosexual as eliminating the possibility of bisexuality, though. Mostly because until I was 19 I was canonically heterosexual. I'm not anymore. Friend up there, 27 before she was willing to act on that she was bisexual. Canon just means the right situation hadn't happened yet (just like immortality only means not dead yet.)
I love my characters that just enjoy sex and enjoy a good seduction, though. But that's YMMV.
I'm not sure I really know how to write gen, because relationships color how I view the world so strongly. But yeah, friendship fic is good.
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Date: 2008-06-29 08:27 pm (UTC)I always assumed that the heroes would be somewhat less bound by the mores of a hetero-normitive society. They deal with meta-humans, clones, and aliens on a regular basis. Humans all seem pretty similar, regardless of gender, when you're comparing us with a being like Braniac. Some normal-looking humans are the most evil villains that they ever face. Some odd-looking aliens are their most powerful allies. And heroes have no trouble discarding other societal dicatates. They act as vigillantes, often circumventing the police entirely. I can't imagine that any prejudice could survive very long, in a life like that.
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Date: 2008-06-29 09:38 pm (UTC)*grins* yeah, there's some of that, as well, in my reasoning.
I mean, mostly I slash the Titans. Let's see. One Amazon, one very sexually open alien, one half-demon, one atlantean. I'm thinking none of those people have Western-culture-normal opinions on sexual practice, and they all grew up together.
And, well, Dick was a carnie and Roy was Navajo. Both of those cultures have some... non-Western-normal opinions, too. The Navajo less than the carnie, at least from what I have heard about carnie culture.
All of those things make a difference, at least imho.
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Date: 2008-06-29 11:26 pm (UTC)Even without their exotic roots, Dick and Roy both have mentors with unusual mores. Bruce sees popular opinion (even moral outrage) as a tool. And Ollie tends not to restrict his appetites.
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Date: 2008-06-29 10:07 pm (UTC)Hmm, my thoughts: for me, it's that elusively-defined chemistry that does it for me. It amuses me no end that I tend to put Diana in a het relationship when she would be perfect for femslash all the time! ;) But while I have written her with Dinah and would be able to write her with a few other women, her relationship with her pretty pilot is what gets me going the most. ;)
As for S/B, I've 'shipped these boys since I was a kid, and their strong friendship pre-COIE (and better now in recent years) speaks to me.
For me, slash is often a natural progression of a very strong friendship.
Bruce/Dick? Very convoluted relationshp there but one that fits the Dynamic Duo. For me, Bruce/Dick is intense, they need each other like the air they breathe...
In SV, I found myself amused at the on-screen chemistry of Tom Welling: he had it in spades with Michael Rosenbaum, and with Justin Hartley. He never had it (at least for me) with the female characters. Lana: pfft! Chloe: a very strong friendship. Lois: good friends now and perfect partners at The Planet later. Now I can see good het on that show, or at least I consider it good chemistry: I happen to like Jimmy and Chloe, and I like Jimmy and Kara. As for other het non-SV, I always enjoyed Teri Hatcher and Dean Cain in L&C.
For me, it's whether two souls match, not the packaging. I do think I tend more toward slash in my reading and writing because we see het around us every day, and slash is still somewhat exotic, or at least fresh, in most cases.
Canon doesn't bother me, because as you well know canon is just a jumping-off point for me. I take the best of canon and create my own world, hopefully with the characters still recognizable! And that's not even my AUs! ;)
I can totally buy a lot of characters being bi, because frankly I think most human beings are but are severely socialized to be het.
And as for superheroes, they're already dealing with the unconventional on a daily basis, and they are unusual, too, so unusual pairings/lifestyles would tend to be the norm for them more than the regular world, anyway. :)
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Date: 2008-06-29 10:43 pm (UTC)Diana would be, and often is, perfect for femslash, but she's good for het relationships too. So there ya go.
*nods* I get why some people have serious S/B love. I just... don't feel it.
I'm a Bruce/Dick girl a lot of the time, and yeah, they do need each other. I very easily buy it going towards sex, too.
SV and I broke up a long, long time ago, but the only way that show makes any sense to me after halfway through season one is if Clark and Lex were screwing like mink off-screen.
*nods* yeah, if the personalities fit, I don't care about the packaging.
yeah, you and I don't approach fic the same way at all. I tend to try to be pretty dang canon faithful, unless, of course, I'm of the considered opinion that the canon sucks. In which case I ignore it like mad.
I think most human beings are but are severely socialized to be het.
What you said, absolutely.
And yeah, the unconventional... isn't, so much, for the hero world.
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Date: 2008-06-30 03:11 am (UTC)Trick was, I was pretty young when I discovered fanfic --- 13 --- and thus I was rather easy to mold. I loved the femmeslash, but it took me a while to reach acceptance of m/m slash. Yu-Gi-Oh made this easy for me, though, because the intensity of the relationships between Yugi, Jonouchi, and Seto was just too much for me not to say to myself, "You know, those two (Yugi and Jono, Yugi and Seto, or Jono and Seto) are either humping like rabbits or thinking about it."
So, eight years hence, I am a somewhat content bisexual. I still swing toward women more often than not, but I wouldn't mind so much if my first time were with another man. Long as the guy was gentle, of course.
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Date: 2008-06-30 03:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-30 03:23 am (UTC)I had wondered, but your preferences're your business. Flattered you told me, though. *smiles*
Oh, Yu-gi-oh. I loved that show so hard.
First times... first times are... interesting. *hugs*
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Date: 2008-06-30 05:56 am (UTC)But, Relena? You would SQUISH Relena?!??!!? *lower lip quivers*
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Date: 2008-06-30 01:10 pm (UTC)Sweetie, I hate that girl. A. Lot. I was 15 when that show aired, and she disgusted me then. I haven't changed my mind.
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Date: 2008-06-30 07:48 pm (UTC)